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[strawser9]

Originally Posted by wala

I think the main thing to remember and learn is that everyone responds differently to exercise and training. We know this because if we were all the same, we would have already devised the most efficient workout that builds muscle, strength, whatever you're after etc in the shortest time possible.

As for 5x5, I think it has its place in anyone's routine. Its not quite powerlifting and its also not quite bodybuilding.. somewhere in between. We know that it helps you attain good strength which still seeing some size increases. I'd say that its certainly a good starting program for anyone.

I started on a regular bodybuilding type routine and I think I paid for it during my second and third years of training. I got my strength up quickly, but then it plateaued. If id have done a strength type routine to start with, I believe my body would have been able to cope with heavier lifts that were to come later on, even if they were higher reps.

(words in bold^^)
No doubt. I'm in no way knocking 5x5 as a beginner routine...only for trying to become a long-term answer for someone looking to build as much muscle mass as possible. It forces people to core lifts such as deads and squats! That in itself will lead to stronger, more stable core's in the future! I would never throw a beginner under the bus and give them a 1 bodypart per day split...nor would I start them with 5x5. 6-12 is still KING regardless of experience. NOW, if you're talking sport-based training...My mindset changes completely on a 5x5 based scheme! strength is key!...of course, learning how to properly perform an exercise is the first step.

[wala]

Originally Posted by strawser9

(words in bold^^)
No doubt. I'm in no way knocking 5x5 as a beginner routine...only for trying to become a long-term answer for someone looking to build as much muscle mass as possible. It forces people to core lifts such as deads and squats! That in itself will lead to stronger, more stable core's in the future! I would never throw a beginner under the bus and give them a 1 bodypart per day split...nor would I start them with 5x5. 6-12 is still KING regardless of experience. NOW, if you're talking sport-based training...My mindset changes completely on a 5x5 based scheme! strength is key!...of course, learning how to properly perform an exercise is the first step.

Yeh man, I agree.

Also, I said I thought it was good for beginners, but I also say 5x5 can benefit an experienced lifter if the goals they are looking for can be obtained using that method.

[Malley]

If you really want to get techincal, ANYTHING will work given the proper variables.

[XiL3]

Looks like I started a friendly war

[strawser9]

Originally Posted by XiL3

Looks like I started a friendly war

ahh...no war. agree to disagree. well, at least on my end. It helps if someone would give their reason for the disagreement instead of just stating that what I said is "so not true"

...



and malley, very true! most people's problems occur because none of the variables mesh lol!

especially those that we train...that go home and eat cake all night and wonder, "WHY NO RESULTS HORRIBLE TRAINER"???????????? LOL...aren't people the best!

[Malley]

That irratates me the most as a trainer. I measure someone and they go no where! They bitch because they are paying me 85 bucks a session and arent seeing results. I ask them to keep a diet log and I cant even get them to do that! Always the trainers fault, (btw, thats not an idiotic smirk, its just me knowing what I am talking about).

[EricT]

I think some of the disagreement here is coming from the interchanging of strength training defintions with the idea of pure bodybuilding goals.

Originally Posted by strawser9

...5x5 wont get you anywhere unless you are in the beginner stage. I hate when people recommend that. most people spend too much time using weight that is FAR too heavy for them so they can stay under 5 reps...instead of doing an exercise right and doing more.

never have been a 5x5 fan...never will be.
however, I never have been a fan of ANY absolute rep scheme. Pick up the weight, and slam out as many as you can!

You asked for a technical reason why this is wrong. Sorry, this may be a little long but you did ask for a technical reason. So I will try based on my understanding and experience. BTW, I've probably run more 5x5's than anyone you ever met (and yes, wasted a lot of time after a while donig so) This will be difficult becasue quite frankly you are talking about two different things that just really don't go together.

I'm not sure there exists a definition of a beginner, intemediate and advanced BODYBUILDER based on lifting and not purely esthetic considerations. What you said about getting stronger is in fact the OPPOSITE of what it takes to really increase absolute strength slowly and systematically throughout a lifting career. That is why Sentinel said it is so wrong...I know him very well so I can be pretty assrued of what he meant.

When we say beginner, intermediate, and advanced in reference to 5x5 programs we are talking about STRENGTH, the time frame of progression based on that, etc....

What you said about people using weight FAR TOO heavy for them....sorry, it just doesn't make any sense. You are speaking in generalities. What people? Waht programs? You are not talking about strength since when it comes to strength intensity is job number one. Finding ways to increase intensity and thus not only muscular cross section but neurological effiecincy is the name of the game. But you said 5x5 is only for begginers and then what? You are supposed to lift for more and more reps? Not lift too much weight?

The truth is the classic model of 5x5 training is no where near as "heavy" as you make it out to be. There is an emphais (wrongly, imo) on increasing volume as you go from beginner to intermediate to advanced, while increasing the load either on a linear or weekly periodized or longer loading block period. It's 25 reps at a time...how heavy do you think that is compared to more advanced methods of strenght training?

So the "weights to heavy for them" doesn't really hold up. Too heavy for whom? Pregnant women? 99 year old men? I agree absolutely that "quality" should come before "quantity". In fact I believe it is one of the problems with the obsession with 5x5 training being some kind of magical ticket to the land of the strong. But you said the opposite. You said lift it right and lift more and more...that's volume thinking not quality thinking. You are under the mistaken assumption that intensity and quality are mutually exclusive. In fact it lies in the other direction. Volume and quality...or quantity and quality...are more exclusive as quantity goes up. So what you are preaching is not that much different than the things you are speaking against with 5x5.

Most “intermediate” 5x5’s can probably used somewhat successfully by beginners. And this can take them from the beginner onto and through the intermediate stage (loosely speaking since that is hard to define) and that is a good mix of intensity and volume and yes it will come with mass gains. It is a middle of the road approach for strength/mass. And the strength gains will serve the “bodybuilder” thinking guy quite well in the future. All those many many reps can be done with higher weights and that will translate into bigger muscles. Hello.

But I agree that past that the value of 5x5 is very limited. The idea of an “advanced 5x5” for “strength and mass” is, imo, ridiculous and counterproductive even if you goals are JUST strength or JUST hypertrophy. Although why anybody thinks they can continue getting bigger without at some point getting stronger is beyond me.

The reasons for this I have been posting on a lot lately so I will just cut and paste a very recent post here so I don’t have to restate it all. This is in regards to the definition of beginner, intermediate, and advanced trainess in relation to strength goals but it applies to those looking just to get bigger as well.

I've done a lot of damage, imo, in the past, with this whole beginner, intermediate, advanced thing and I want to try to undo some of my part in that.

So like I've said several times lately the whole definition with beginner, intermediate, advanced that so many of us have passed around, based on Rippetoe and 5x5 stuff in general really only applies to that particular training model. I.E. it is how you use 5x5 if you want to make a religion out of 5x5 training...and come out with some nice injuries like shoulders and hips but to name a few...

But it's this volume mentality that I am railing against. Don't talk about STRENGTH training and then say I need to work more and more volume and frequency as I advance, lol, that is the antithesis of an advanced stregnth trainee. Basically what your are telling people is that as their neurological efficiency increases so that each and every rep takes a BIGGER toll on their abiltity to recover...they should be doing MORE VOLUME. If they can do that and survive it, ummm....they ain't so advanced as you think they are.

Take a guy who has spent a bunch time doing 8, 10, 12 or even 15 reps training in this "bodybuilding" vein for a while and put him on an "intermediate" 5x5 and he is going to get great results owed simply to the fact that he has increased intensity while allowing just enough volume to see results and also just enough volume to keep the intensity mangagable for his level of efficiency.

Hell, that guy will probably even like it better than the guy who does starting strength and then moves on to an intermediate 5x5 because it is much easier to get stronger by systematcially rasing intensity while lowering volume than it is to get stronger by raising volume while looking for ways to make it a bit heavier....the reason ramped sets on 5x5 is so popular.

But then you take that guy who has went from the typical bodybuilding routines and completed his intermediate 5x5's, if not a couple of them and you want to take him to the next level. Instead of taking that ability to work at higher intesities, to handle heavier loads with good form, and expanding on that...raising the intensity while managing everything from a recovery standpoint you do something quite ludicrous in my opinion.

You take the "5x5" reps and tell him to simply do even more of that. With a very unbalanced and overkilled appraoch. You've given him just enough strength and efficiency to make it "count" an then you have him use that strength with such a volume that you practically or certainly potentiall destroy his joints as well as simply risking all sorts of strain injuries. You also are giving him a thought process that is the bane of any one looking to increase strength as long as possible for a nice long lifting career.

You make him believe that "quantity" wins out over "quality". Everything begins to center more and more on "getting reps" by any means possible. Accruing fatigue on as a means to an end! The businees of accruing fatigue and lifting with good form are polar opposite when it comes to this.

Course I can anticipate the response so let me say it for you. "I've been doing this for years and it's always worked for me". Or "I've never had a problem". Well, to say nothing of problems, if you can do the same shtick for years with the same results you must be a magic man. Or, like most you have stopped and started, changed goals and "cut" for a while, etc. In other words you have NOT had the same goal for "years and years" that you have sought like a straight arrow. You haven't been increasing your absolute strength consistently without big breaks of detraining or emphais shift...and therefore the same "strength" things keep working because you never quite exhaust their usefullness.

On the other hand you got what 0311 termed "falling off the deep end" which is what so many do just fishing around for something different. It's all about goals and being consistent.

Anyway, the jist of what I'm saying here is that I don't think that the defintions of beginer, intermediate, and advanced STRENGTH trainees that we have been going by are an accurate depiction of reality...just a depiction of a training model. And not really a great one, I don't think.

No doubt someone will bring up strongman training, etc...again..don't confuse the methods someone uses based on their goals and fundamental principles. Strongman don't train primarily for absolute strength, dude, they need to rep out have beaucoup physical endurance. Their absolute strength training would have to match that goal and the intensities would be much higher so of course the volume would be much lower.

A lot of this is not so general as it sounds. I am basing much of it on my own experience and realizing just how many frigging reps I did for such small jumps in strength for so long when I could have made much bigger jumps without all the nagging little injuries an such I incrued by not mangaging volume as well I should have.

In summary, if your goal is strength then 5x5 is absolutely great to visit...but don't move there permanantly. Many may disagree..trust me I don't take it personally. I've noticed that many on this forum just don't want to wrap their heads around the fact that strength and mass are intimately related. There is way too much pre-occupation in the general bodybuilding population on what is exclusivly strength and what is exclusively bodybuilding. Both goals can be quite beneficial to each other's expression. All rep ranges will have to be used at some point. This business of separating out 6-12 and whatever other range is shortsighted. And getting stronger is GOOD for you folks. Why the hell would someone only want to look strong? You can have both and it's much more fun.

[strawser9]

ahh...screw it. cannot collect thoughts at 4:30am

btw...form plays a HUGE role in intensity. It might not fit into the equation, but w/o proper form...down goes the weight, with lighter weight...down goes intensity.

and, another BTW.
I am not talking about strength training, if you were to read. this is a place in the forum to talk about "hardcore bodybuilding"...not strength training. while strength and mass are related, there is still space between the two...from an exercise standpoint. You can find some small SOB's that can lift a hell of a lot of weight, and some HUGE (talking about non-juicers here) cut guys that can't lift shit comparitively.

after a 5x5 program...what next? I'll tell you.
Key lifts such as squats, deads, and presses still create the base of the program. The difference? If the fucker picks a weight on a heavy set where he can get more than 5...HE DOES IT. Its never been the exercises or the sets that bothered me (especially considering I sometimes do 7 sets of a heavy lift) Its the REPS. (and yes...i'm still talking about bodybuilding, not strength training)

to end this post quickly...considering I can't remember half of what you wrote by the time I'm done reading...with something I already said
for BBing, why actually focus on a specific rep scheme? challenge yourself every time you step in the gym. If you're doing deadlifts and only get 5 for a set, good. If you get 7, great...
however, there is no point in stopping at 5 if you can get 7! once you get up around 12+...you just didn't put enough freakin weight on to begin with.

IMO, a combination of both strength training and bodybuilding wins every time. heavy, intense sets...and sets where concentration is on form/contraction.

hell, i don't even remember if what I just said makes sense to me.......i'll tell you after I sleep lol.

[wala]

Straws, doesn't form usually go out the window when using a heavier weight? not lighter?

[Malley]

Again which ever you decide to do I do not think there is one certain program that works for everyone. Choose what program works best for you and critique it to where it works best for you. 5x5 is a very good strength program, but to use it with a new client would be a horrible choice. They have joints and tendons that need strengthening. I didnt read all of Erics post, so I dont know what he covered or didnt, its just to damn long.

[EricT]

I agree with. I wouldn't put someone right on a 5x5. As a matter of fact I wouldn't put someone right onto starting strength.

Good luck, people on really learning and expanding if you can't read and comprehend more than a few paragraphs. Some things cannot be covered by a few bullet points.

Strawser, you ask for an explanation and I gave you one..then you get upset about it. You can disagree without it being like someone is challenging your moral code or soemething. But I take it that is because you were sleepy. As for all the stuff about "hardcore bodybuilding" versus strength...the phenomenom of the little guy lifting hugh weights is an exception. As far as rep schemes...besides the intermediate 5x5's if someone wants to do them, I certainly wouldn't recommend just one rep scheme.

Doesn't seem like you understood much of what I wrote. Sorry. I wrote it as clearly as I could. I'm not going to re-phrase everything because you get insulted if your beliefs are challenged. If I say something a bit different than what you are used to or expect to hear, it's not meant to be a personal insult. Disagree is not the same as dislike. I'm just trying to make myself clear.

I discussed QUALITY. That would imply good form. Form doesn't go out the window unless the weights are TOO heavy. You do not train for strength or anything else with bad form and too heavy weights. Again....you can still lift heavy while maintaining quality. They are not mutually exclusive. And no, I am not saying one would only used low reps and never dip into higher rep ranges. Actually, if you examined most strength training programs past the ever popular 5x5, you'd find that it can look much like a combo of strength and bodybuilding, althougth maybe not in the way you are thinking.

The business of strength versus hardcore bodybuilding is really a misconception and the little guy lifting huge weights is the exception. You eat a lot and you will get big as you get strong. This is just opinion and a considered on from someone who did the "hardcore bodybuilding" for many years. If I really thought the two were SO exclusive then I wouldn't talk about it here in in the "hardcore bodybuilding" section, whatever that means. But I'm not the one who brought up 5x5, which are strength/mass programs...I was just responding to the conversation at hand. Sorry if I wrote too long and upset anyone again.

[Malley]

Didnt upset me.

[strawser9]

Originally Posted by wala

Straws, doesn't form usually go out the window when using a heavier weight? not lighter?

Form goes to shit when using weight that is too heavy, or when trying to do too many reps...or when someone has no idea how to do something in the first place

I just emphasized the fact that I was talking about BBing, NOT strength training (and yes, you can have programs specifically designed for strength vs. mass...in a perfect world, both happen at the same time equally. This is not quite where we live, yet, without JUICE)
you never upset me...or offended me
hell
I don't even know what we're arguing about.

seems like we both agree that a program with absolute set reps is not the best program. Nobody ever said you have to seperate strength and mass...and I actually said they are very closely related. If you don't lift heavy, you won't grow.......however even if you do lift heavy, if you don't use proper form and concentrate on the contraction of the movement, you'll reach a point where you won't grow.

again...I was never upset or offended or anything else by your post...only frustrated I couldn't read the damn thing at 4:30am (not frustrated because you wrote a long post).

[EricT]

That's all cool. Malley I'm glad you aren't upset but I wasn't talking to you, hehe.

Strawser, I agree that we agree on some things. In fact if you read what I said closely I did try to make clear the SPECIFIC statements I was rebutting. My apologies if that wasn't clear. Much of the rest of what I said was simply me backing up my philosophy on the 5x5 thing and wasn't meant to challenge your further. It's just something I do..I say something I like to back it up thouroghly...explain my thought process.

I agree of coure wholeheartedly on the issue of form. And probably one of the biggest problems people have is that they don't consider technique and form something that always has to be worked on and improved. I deal with a lot of people who are interested in strength and size and probably the most DIFFICULT issue to get across is this issue of quality. It is wrapped up in my whole philosophy.

Your statement about JUICE, if I understand what your are saying, however, sorry...again this is another misconception about the advantages of juice. There is no use of getting into it I know but let me just say that for the average guy, average genetics for muscle growth, and NO juice...training for strength and mass will be the most successful if done sensibly in line with recovery in mind. It is juice that allows people to simply do more WORK and to RECOVER from that elevated work capacity. This is the bodybuilding world for the professional non-natural bb'r and it is not the world those of use that are natural should really be living in.

I know several natural competitors and I always tell them that one of their problems is they try to mimick the training of their gear using brethren. And not ONE of them is interested in strenght at all. It is volume, volume, and more volume. Unless you think all big and strong dudes are on roids.