Q about Westside

[IceDragon]

I think I understand the basic principles of it, but is there any way I can tweak it so I'm not going for hypertrophy?

If I go under 12 reps, I start getting bigger and that's not really what I'm after, so is it possible to actually utilise a programme like this without gaining size or is it impossible?

One other note: I've used what I think is called a pyramid set before, which worked for me without me gaining size, so could I incorporate that instead of the low rep system? (It was 1x12, 1x10, 1x8, 1x6 with a heavier weight each set)

Or am I just worrying about nothing?

[_Wolf_]

ur worrying about nothing.

12 reps does not equal hypertrophy. its ur diet that matters. i gained 25 lbs in 1 year doing leser than 6 reps. can ya believe that???

dont worry about it. just maintain ur diet and everything will iron itself out. how is ur westside program set up?

[IceDragon]

Well, I still have about 18 or so days of this contest left, so I'll be using that time just making a programme up before I start it once the contest is finished.

I know it needs to be based around squats, deadlifts and stuff like that because I've read those articles you posted (yes, I did read them LOL - didn't understand all of it, but got the general idea anyway), and I'm pretty sure it'll be two days normal tempo weights at my usual weight and then two days of explosive tempo at a lower weight - is that roughly how it works?

I'll still stick to the hour of kickboxercise, swimming and roller-skating I do for cardio (the kids adore the skating), but other than that, I have nothing more than a vague idea.

If anyone has tips, suggestions or even a template workout I can tweak, that'd be great because I really don't know how to set it up or anything so I'm kind of fumbling in the dark at this point.

[Malley]

Westside is based for strength. I used it for 6 months and actually lost size, but gained a shit ton of strength.

[IceDragon]

Okay, I've just twiddled about with the basic template Sentinel posted in another thread (thanks mate, reps forever for that), but what do I need to change?

Day 1: (medium weight, explosive movement) Chest (8x3, bench press), delts (3x3), tris (3x10), upper back (3x10). Archery.

Day 2: Off (pretty sure I'm going to need an actual rest day here, to be honest although I'll be joining a yoga class for an hour when my youngest goes to playschool so I can do that and core work).

Day 3: kickboxercise, abs.

Day 4: (maximum effort, heavy weight) Squat, deadlift, low back, bis.

Day 5: (maximum effort, heavy weight for chest), tris (3x3, 2 exercises), upper back (3x10), abs.

Day 6: (medium weight, speed) squat (6x2), low back, bis (lighter weight, higher reps than day 4). Roller-skating with kids.

Day 7: hour swim.

The only problem is, I still have pain in my muscles two or sometimes three days later - is that a problem? I always thought you weren't supposed to work them again until the pain completely went?

Aside from that, I'm not sure I won't have difficulty following it because it's a bit complicated...far more so than any other programme I've been using.

[Richie_Awesome]

Yes, low reps are fine.

Yes, working through the pain is fine, if it's not injury pain and only DOMS(delayed onset muscle soreness)

Though I don't exactly have the same views as this article, you can read up on it.

Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[IceDragon]

Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome

Yes, low reps are fine.

Yes, working through the pain is fine, if it's not injury pain and only DOMS(delayed onset muscle soreness)

Though I don't exactly have the same views as this article, you can read up on it.

Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So as long as I do an adequate warm-up, cool-down and stretching, I should be okay with it?

And I should stop the instant I feel any pain that isn't DOMS related?

Right fair enough, I can do that.

Anything else that needs to change?

[Richie_Awesome]

Well, it may be hard to distinguish pain between injury pain and DOMS pain. If it's the usual burn, it should be fine.

I personally do not do a cool down nor any stretching after working out, but that my incorrect on my part. I know some also say that stretching before working out can result in strength loss.

Personally, I do about 30 seconds of stretching for whatever body parts I am going to work, and a few warm up sets.

I'm no expert on training through the pain, though I do it.

[_Wolf_]

u can gain mass off almost any routine.

now, with westside u dont necessarily need to do westside per se. u could do an upper lower fcussing on strength. u could even add in some rotations of lifts. but u dont need to do WESTSIDE pe se.

Ice Dragon: would u like me to help u design an upper lower program which focusses on strength? here are some tips just for u to start off:

ur workouts should be like this:
Upper 1
Lower 1
Upper 2
Lower 2

choose 2 upper body movements and 2 lower body movements.

for upper, (i have learnt this from elite strongmen trainers) choose the bench press and the military press. for lower days choose deads and squats.

now, u will have ur program looking this broadly:

Lower Deadlift
Upper Bench
Lower Squat
Upper Military

now, my philosophy regarding exercise selection and volume is really simple: start out with minimal volume so that there is room to add more when required and there is room to cut volume at the same time if required.

so, here is how i would plan each day:

Lower 1 - Deadlift
1.) Deadlifts - plan a progression chart. u could do 1x5 and add 5 lbs to the bar every time. or u could just deadlift a particular amount of weight and increase the reps the next time around. u could start off with 1x5 for a few months and then go by feel. or u might not. upto u. just avoid training to failure.
2.) a squat variant for something like 3x6 or 4x5 or 3x5. low rep stuff.
3.) if u want u could do some ham work. like leg curls or so. its optional and u could do it every now and then. high rep low sets IMO.
4.) some grip work
5.) abs

Upper 1 - Bench Press
1.) bench press - choose a set rep sheme like 10x3 or 3x5 or 5x2 or something which u can progress on by adding 5 lbs to the bar every week. do not do singles or triples per week because u are not going to rotate this. every 6-8 weeks u can do a max out session for kicks to see where u are. as long as ur not regressing its good.
2.) a back movement which has carry over onto ur bench press. not rows right now. choose something else. rows will be done later. chin-ups help a lot. so do pull-ups. dont do lat pull downs if u can do weighted chins or pull-ups.
3.) a pressing exercise. since im assuming u plan on competing RAW (without any gear), id advise u to do a pressing exercise which will help with ur bottom end of the bench. there are tons of options: pause presses, pin presses, dumbbell benches, seated militaries, incline presses, etc etc. my favourites are flat dumbbell bench presses, low incline db presses and seated dumbbell military presses. do this for higher reps around 8-12 for 2-4 sets.
4.) here is where i would do the rows. choose a row variation - js rows, yates rows, 45* rows, etc. do it for 3-4 sets of 6-10 reps. u could go by feel regarding loads.

Lower 2: Squat
1.) Squat - same principles progression as bench press
2.) Glute ham raises
3.) some deadlift variation. like RDLs or SLDLs. make sure these are light. u dont want to overdo these because u could regress on deads then.
4.) optional u could do some extensions for kicks...
5.) ab work

Upper 2: Military Press
1.) Military Press - choose a progression scheme for these. i dont know much about this but i am learning from a strongman how to progress on this. i will update u when i learn.
2.) if u did chin-ups on upper 1, do pull-ups here. or vice versa.
3.) if u did seated shoulder presses or some shoulder variation on upper 1, do a chest press exercise here like dumbbell presses. u could actually do anything here as long as its a pressing exercise. close grip bench presses, jm presses, anything just as long as it has some carry over onto the bench press.
4.) do a rowing exercise here. preferably machine oriented like cable rows. or if u want, scratch rows and only do another tricep extension here. not a pressing exercise - do a tricep extension exercise.

these are just some tips. im on a different program but mine is similar.

u could do these on a monday-tuesday, thursday-friday basis or u could do a rotation. it all depends on ur recovery capabilities.

if u need more help let me know ma'am

cheers

Sentinel

[IceDragon]

Originally Posted by Sentinel

u can gain mass off almost any routine.

now, with westside u dont necessarily need to do westside per se. u could do an upper lower fcussing on strength. u could even add in some rotations of lifts. but u dont need to do WESTSIDE pe se.

To be quite frank, I really have NO idea how to go about this and since Westside has been suggested to me as a great place to start, that's why I asked about it specifically.

Ice Dragon: would u like me to help u design an upper lower program which focusses on strength? here are some tips just for u to start off:

Like I said, any help would be great since it's almost like the semi-blind leading the blind here LOL

ur workouts should be like this:
Upper 1
Lower 1
Upper 2
Lower 2

choose 2 upper body movements and 2 lower body movements.

for upper, (i have learnt this from elite strongmen trainers) choose the bench press and the military press. for lower days choose deads and squats.

So basically stick with compounds? Well, that's easy enough since I tend to prefer them.

now, u will have ur program looking this broadly:

Lower Deadlift
Upper Bench
Lower Squat
Upper Military

now, my philosophy regarding exercise selection and volume is really simple: start out with minimal volume so that there is room to add more when required and there is room to cut volume at the same time if required.

Great advice, will stick to it.

so, here is how i would plan each day:

Lower 1 - Deadlift
1.) Deadlifts - plan a progression chart. u could do 1x5 and add 5 lbs to the bar every time. or u could just deadlift a particular amount of weight and increase the reps the next time around. u could start off with 1x5 for a few months and then go by feel. or u might not. upto u. just avoid training to failure.
2.) a squat variant for something like 3x6 or 4x5 or 3x5. low rep stuff.
3.) if u want u could do some ham work. like leg curls or so. its optional and u could do it every now and then. high rep low sets IMO.
4.) some grip work
5.) abs

I'm currently deadlifting and squatting 40 pounds (I know it's low, but I'm trying to take it slow to avoid injury as I haven't done this before). I'll be aiming for 50 pounds this week, so it's a start at least.

Squat variant - box squats, for example? Would I use a heavy or medium weight for that?

For deads, I've been doing 3x12 and I'm nowhere near failure, so would 3x5 at a heavier weight be a good place to start, and slowly increase the weight from there?

Maybe every couple of weeks alternate it with a lower weight and higher reps, say 3x15 or something just for that one workout, then change back?

Upper 1 - Bench Press
1.) bench press - choose a set rep sheme like 10x3 or 3x5 or 5x2 or something which u can progress on by adding 5 lbs to the bar every week. do not do singles or triples per week because u are not going to rotate this. every 6-8 weeks u can do a max out session for kicks to see where u are. as long as ur not regressing its good.
2.) a back movement which has carry over onto ur bench press. not rows right now. choose something else. rows will be done later. chin-ups help a lot. so do pull-ups. dont do lat pull downs if u can do weighted chins or pull-ups.
3.) a pressing exercise. since im assuming u plan on competing RAW (without any gear), id advise u to do a pressing exercise which will help with ur bottom end of the bench. there are tons of options: pause presses, pin presses, dumbbell benches, seated militaries, incline presses, etc etc. my favourites are flat dumbbell bench presses, low incline db presses and seated dumbbell military presses. do this for higher reps around 8-12 for 2-4 sets.
4.) here is where i would do the rows. choose a row variation - js rows, yates rows, 45* rows, etc. do it for 3-4 sets of 6-10 reps. u could go by feel regarding loads.

As for chin-ups, I've never done them at all, so would 3x5 be sufficient (as long as I can get up there in the first place LOL)?

For competing, I'm not going to do that ...YET. I want to have a good, solid base first, so it'll be at least a year or so before I even begin to think of that, but yes, it will be raw (if raw means "unassisted", anyway).

So...military and/or chest press for 3x12 as I have been doing, and increase the weight every workout?

As for those rows...do you have any piccies or anything of them? I've never even heard of a Yates row (heard of Dorian, just not THAT one exercise).

Lower 2: Squat
1.) Squat - same principles progression as bench press
2.) Glute ham raises
3.) some deadlift variation. like RDLs or SLDLs. make sure these are light. u dont want to overdo these because u could regress on deads then.
4.) optional u could do some extensions for kicks...
5.) ab work

Squats which I do ATG - could I start at 3x12 like I have been doing and see how it goes from there, adding weight each session?

Um...what are glute ham raises? Only exercise I do for my hams is SLDL (which I'm assuming I can do here, but only light weight for say...3x12 or something?), and if I then start to slide back, I'll lay off these ones?

Upper 2: Military Press
1.) Military Press - choose a progression scheme for these. i dont know much about this but i am learning from a strongman how to progress on this. i will update u when i learn.
2.) if u did chin-ups on upper 1, do pull-ups here. or vice versa.
3.) if u did seated shoulder presses or some shoulder variation on upper 1, do a chest press exercise here like dumbbell presses. u could actually do anything here as long as its a pressing exercise. close grip bench presses, jm presses, anything just as long as it has some carry over onto the bench press.
4.) do a rowing exercise here. preferably machine oriented like cable rows. or if u want, scratch rows and only do another tricep extension here. not a pressing exercise - do a tricep extension exercise.

So...maybe a heavier military press? Or something slightly different?

What's the difference between a chin-up and pull-up?

these are just some tips. im on a different program but mine is similar.

u could do these on a monday-tuesday, thursday-friday basis or u could do a rotation. it all depends on ur recovery capabilities.

At the moment, my recovery is shite, to be honest. Takes me at least two days to get over a weight session, two days to get over kickboxercise, two days to get over swimming...it's a pain in the butt.

Hopefully now I've rectified my diet it'll actually help me somewhat, watch this space.

if u need more help let me know ma'am

cheers

Sentinel

I'm really grateful Sentinel, thanks mate.

You've helped me no end.

[IceDragon]

So...let me get this straight...

Four workouts a week, two upper, two lower.

One of those two is high weight, low reps. The other one of those two is low weight, high reps.

Stick with compounds like squats, deadlifts, presses, rows, etc.

Work progressively, by increasing the weight slightly each workout.

Ab work done four days a week (including during kickboxercise and yoga classes), full body also on a sunday (swimming).

Other than that, rest, eat well, and the rest will sort itself out over a period of at least three months - if no progress by that time, alter what needs to be changed and continue.

Is that about it?

[_Wolf_]

Originally Posted by IceDragon

So...let me get this straight...

Four workouts a week, two upper, two lower.

One of those two is high weight, low reps. The other one of those two is low weight, high reps.

Stick with compounds like squats, deadlifts, presses, rows, etc.

Work progressively, by increasing the weight slightly each workout.

Ab work done four days a week (including during kickboxercise and yoga classes), full body also on a sunday (swimming).

Other than that, rest, eat well, and the rest will sort itself out over a period of at least three months - if no progress by that time, alter what needs to be changed and continue.

Is that about it?

pretty much. but u dont have high rep workouts. u have high rep sets. for example, u will be doing heavy squats, militaries, deads and bench...

[IceDragon]

Originally Posted by Sentinel

pretty much. but u dont have high rep workouts. u have high rep sets. for example, u will be doing heavy squats, militaries, deads and bench...

Originally Posted by IceDragon

One of those two is high weight, low rep set (such as 3x5). The other one of those two is low weight, high rep set (such as 3x12).

Better?

[_Wolf_]

Originally Posted by IceDragon

Better?

no

let me give u a small explanation...

example:

Upper 1
Bench Press 3x5
Chin-ups 3x failure
Seated DB Military Presses 3x8-12
JS Rows 4x6-10

Upper 2
Military Press 3-4x5-7
Pull-ups 4x failure
Close Grip Bench Press 3x8-12
Cable Rows 3x8-12

u see?