who's worse...doctors? or the media?

[strawser9]

Science wishy-washy on health benefits of water - Diet and nutrition - MSNBC.com

why?
so, water isn't a miracle drug! surprise!!!!!!!!! claiming 64 ounces of water per day is harmful? WTF!

then the media takes it and portrays it to be factual...

stick to your kidneys fucktards, leave nutrition to other people!
when will they realize that science = falable?
when will they realize that not everything needs to be proven by science to be true?


...the walking encyclopedia's strike again!

[1quick1]

I'm surprised it doesn't cause cancer like everything else.

[strawser9]

"There is what I call an urban myth that drinking a lot of water is a healthy thing to do and it leads to people toting around plastic water bottles all day drinking water," said Dr. Stanley Goldfarb, of the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia.

another stupid article about humans creating global warming...
getting WAY out of hand. states suing companies for not being eco-friendly, people dissing water because of water bottles?

wtf is next?

[EricT]

You guys seem to be getting real upset about water. Why is that?

Instead of being angry because your beliefs are challenged why not do some indepandant research so that you can back up your beliefs with something more than dogma? I, personally, don't go by the media but I also am not easily swayed by the "everyone knows" argument. In my experience that is code for "I cannot back up my assertions".

As far as the good for you versus harmful thing, as Alwyn Cosgrove often points out, this is the typcial over-reaction then under-reaction. We get very excited about things and over-react for a while. And then when they don't seem to be entirely defensible we blacklist them for a while, even to the point of painting them harmful. EVERYONE is guilty of this, not just the media.

Pretty much all our common beliefs on nutrition are based on "scientific" recommendations. The 8x8 water thing as well. People didn't just randomly decide to go around drinking bottled water all the time. The beverage industry just took advantage of it. The statement or statements about water may have been misconstrued, or taken out of context but you can bet they were based on something who seemed to be in a position of scientific "authority". So I don't understand how it is not the job of science to prove or disprove the things attributed to science.

Our moms fed us margarine instead of butter based on "science" as well. Simply based on the ideas behind saturated fat in excess being harmful. The industry too advantage and now that trans fat has been shown to be very harmful nobody seems to have a problem with that. But it's all based on "science". The media is a very bad source of scientific info. And yet the copious amounts of water you drink are traceable as well to media treatment of the "science". But now it is a well-entrenched belief and any statement to the contrary and the media are idiots. It doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing we as individuals can do is our own research based on as many primary sources as possible, and educate ourselves to make our own decisions.

[Joeflex73]

Of the 4 myths, the only one I wasnt pretty sure on was number 2 before reading the article.

Number 1, hunger and thirst work on different mechanisms anyways.

Number 3, the only way theyre going to reduce a headache is if its induced because of dehydration.

Number 4, this comes from people who are dehydrated, they lose skin turgur. But in people who arent already dehydrated, it wont have any effect, but fat content and b-vitamins can.

They do go on to say that athletes, people in hot, dry climates and people suffering from kidney stones may need more.

And think about it, 64 oz of fluids is not a whole lot. If you eat 5 times a day thats only about 13oz each time you sit down, not counting what youll take in during a gym session.

I say drink up. The article didnt say much that wasnt for the most part known.

[Joeflex73]

Originally Posted by 1quick1

I'm surprised it doesn't cause cancer like everything else.

Actually if injected repeatedly into the same sight it can....anything can.

[Big Guns]

Water Rusts Your Pipes
Drink beer.

First off...don't believe anything on MSNBC. The media controls how things are interpreted nad displayed. Plastic water bottles are for the "in" croud....and are the biggest land fill problem. Fill yer milk jug up and drink from it.

One is that drinking a lot of water suppresses appetite. "Many people drink water before and during the meal to try to suppress their appetite," Goldfarb explained, yet there is "no consistent evidence" that water suppresses appetite. "Because you absorb water so quickly and it moves through the GI tract so quickly, it probably doesn't fill you up the way people have proposed, nor does it lead to the release of hormones which suppress appetite as far as we know," the researcher said.

Drink a gallon of water and see how much room you have left for your FAT buger.

It's all in the wording.

[strawser9]

Originally Posted by EricT

You guys seem to be getting real upset about water. Why is that?

Instead of being angry because your beliefs are challenged why not do some indepandant research so that you can back up your beliefs with something more than dogma? I, personally, don't go by the media but I also am not easily swayed by the "everyone knows" argument. In my experience that is code for "I cannot back up my assertions".

As far as the good for you versus harmful thing, as Alwyn Cosgrove often points out, this is the typcial over-reaction then under-reaction. We get very excited about things and over-react for a while. And then when they don't seem to be entirely defensible we blacklist them for a while, even to the point of painting them harmful. EVERYONE is guilty of this, not just the media.

Pretty much all our common beliefs on nutrition are based on "scientific" recommendations. The 8x8 water thing as well. People didn't just randomly decide to go around drinking bottled water all the time. The beverage industry just took advantage of it. The statement or statements about water may have been misconstrued, or taken out of context but you can bet they were based on something who seemed to be in a position of scientific "authority". So I don't understand how it is not the job of science to prove or disprove the things attributed to science.

Our moms fed us margarine instead of butter based on "science" as well. Simply based on the ideas behind saturated fat in excess being harmful. The industry too advantage and now that trans fat has been shown to be very harmful nobody seems to have a problem with that. But it's all based on "science". The media is a very bad source of scientific info. And yet the copious amounts of water you drink are traceable as well to media treatment of the "science". But now it is a well-entrenched belief and any statement to the contrary and the media are idiots. It doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing we as individuals can do is our own research based on as many primary sources as possible, and educate ourselves to make our own decisions.

it ultimately isn't about water...its about the affect articles like this have on people. If a doctor published an article about how drinking 30 beers everyday is good for you, whether backed by any evidence or not, i guarentee thousands of people will go out and get shitfaced TRULY believing it is good for them!

people are easily swayed on subjects they know nothing about! IMO anyone that gets out of bed in the morning should be drinking water...all day long! saying water is not a miracle drug is one thing, but the article comes across as saying water is useless...and that is absolutely pathetic!

[EricT]

I'm not here to the defend the article. But I don't think it is fair to exagerate what te article says in order to make a point. I'm saying that you guys are basing you knee-jerk reactions on belief. A lot of what the article said was true. And the article never said water was worthless. Has anyone bothered to try and dive deeper into it to try to find out where all this is coming from? It comes from a research review done over a year ago...I posted on it in March I think, of last year, at my home forum.

You not getting my point. What you are saying about drinking water all day long is no more qualified than you think the article is. There is no basis for your statements except what the media has taught us. Everybody complains about the media but from what I can see nobody is doing any really independant research from primary sources. I really don't mean to offend anyone but what you guys are saying, is as media driven as anything else. You don't have any evidence other than dogma and yet you become insensed when that very media who popularized it in the first place presents incomplete reactions to scientific research...which is what they always do.

It makes no sense whatsoever to me that you would say "people know nothing about it" and then give your opinion about it. Why do you think you opinion is any different than an opinion in an article? Did anyone bother to search for the source of all this turn-around about water?

I posted on this stuff a year ago before the media hardly had ahold of it. If you want to change all this misinformation than start searching pub-med. Cross reference everything you read. When you find a concept that is interesting, dive deeper into it. Seek out as many sources as possible. The more primary the source the better. Keep an open mind. Then try to form an opionion based on fact rather than opinion. Because a FORUM IS A FORM OF MEDIA.

The comment about the kidneys: When it comes to body fluids it is ALL about the kidneys. Any discussion of body water has to start with the kidneys.

I'll tell you what, I'll get the ball rolling on the fact versus opinion train.

[EricT]

8x8 Water Review

The short of it is that there just has never been any real scientific evidence to support such coupious intakes of H20. The evidence does say that pretty much every fluid containing thing we take in "counts" including coffee, and the water in food. The osmoregulatory system in healthy persons is VERY efficient. Most of this "fluid retention" and sodium stuff comes from the practice of bodybuilders trying to shed water and "dry out" to appear more shredded. The average guy who bodybuilds and drinks coffee or whatever is not going to be all bloated with water retention. That's an individual problem. I used to drink 5 or 6 cups a day and never "retained" water.

I agree that we need plenty of water. I think, however, that forcing ridiculous amounts of it in the face of NO evidence and in fact, plenty of counter evidence, is just a sort of accepted dogma. If an when something real becomes available I will happily take that into consideration.

Here is an article that discusses the review I've just posted:

By: Mauro Di Pasquale

Almost everyone agrees that water is good for you and that the biggest problem with water intake is that you don't drink enough. We have all had it drummed into us that we need to drink at least eight glasses of water a day. That it's important to drink water before and during exercise.

That coffee and tea don't count because caffeine can dehydrate our bodies. And that you can't trust your thirst as an accurate measure of when you need water since if you're thirsty you're already dehydrated. Well think again. According to a recent review in the Journal of Physiology, most of these accepted truths seem to be myths.

This review looked at the scientific evidence of the 8*8 mantra � drinking at least eight 8-ounce glasses of water a day, and found that there really was none.

The claimed benefits of taking in that much water each day, including benefits for weight loss, bowels, fatigue, arthritis, mental alertness and headaches, losing weight, preventing constipation, are also mostly unsubstantiated.

Other Water Myths That Are Debunked In This Article Include:

By the time a person is thirsty that person is already dehydrated. This in fact isn't true and the best measure of how much water to drink is your thirst.

Dark urine means dehydration. Again that's not strictly true either as there are many other factors that can contribute to dark urine.

Caffeinated beverages dehydrate us. As you'd expect much of this is also unsubstantiated. In fact, contrary to popular opinion, a recent study has found that coffee, tea and sodas are hydrating for people used to caffeine and thus should count toward their daily fluid total.

While this review focuses on the validity of the various water myths, no one seriously disputes that getting enough water is crucial. However, fears of dehydration and the constant barrage telling us we don't drink enough water, has led to a mistaken belief that the safe thing to do is to drink as much and as often as possible. But drinking too much water can be hazardous to your health.

Too Much Water?

The reason why over hydrating can be dangerous is that when we consume large amounts of water when exercising, blood plasma (the liquid part of blood) increases, while the sodium concentration in the body fluids decreases, both as a result of the dilution by the water but also because sodium is lost by sweating.

Hyponatremia, or low blood sodium, generally happens after drinking too much plain water and can lead to adverse effects and tissue damage, and interfere with brain, heart, and muscle function.

Early symptoms can be difficult to spot and include:

Confusion
Nausea
Fatigue
Muscle cramps
Weakness
More severe symptoms can include vomiting, muscle twitching, delirium, seizures, coma and death.

A new review of three deaths of US military recruits highlights the dangers of drinking too much water. Like in sports, the military has traditionally focused on dangers of not drinking enough, especially under conditions often associated with exercise and hot conditions. However, getting overzealous over the need to drink large amounts of water and over-hydrating can have deadly consequences.

So How Much Water Should You Drink.

My recommendation is to drink when you're thirsty, and if you think you should be drinking more, don't overdo it. As far as drinking water in and around exercise, I've outlined a few simple guidelines that will make sure you're well hydrated without hitting any extremes.

Within an hour or so of training, drink a few glasses of water so you start well hydrated. While training you can drink a glass or so of water for every 15 minutes you train, especially if you're sweating it out.

However, even during times of heavy sweating don't take in more than a quart and half of water per hour. As far as how much your daily intake of water should be, The American College of Sports Medicine that 12 quarts is the maximum amount to drink in a 24-hour period.

------------------------------------------------------------

One other thing on the fluid retention thing. Extracellular water balance is regulated through sodiuim levels. The body does not "hoard water" in times of shortages. If a person retains a lot of water which will usually cause localized swelling there are a host of medical condtions to look at. Dehydration not being one of them. If the healthy normal body hoarded water outside cells just because we didn't drink copious amounts we would be in trouble. It would upset metabolic processes. The reason people shed water when they drink incredible amounts of water is because they lose sodium. Which can be very dangerous. It is not "healthy". If you are not going to step on stage and have not already fucked up your body to the point where you are retaining excess fluid (a medical problem) then it is not good advice to "drink a lot of water to shed water", imo.

Since I know people won't take my word about this myth of "hoarding water" as such I thought I'd post this little thing on the function of the kidneys.

The body has two kidneys, each about 4-5 inches in length and reddish in color. The kidneys are located just above the waist, behind the abdominal cavity. Each kidney contains the hilus, through which the ureters are connected. Blood vessels and lymphatic vessels also are connected at the hilus, with the blood entering through the renal artery.

Three layers of tissue surround each kidney. The renal fascia, made of a dense connective tissue, anchors the kidneys to surrounding structures.

The principle task of the kidney is to preserve the volume and composition of the extracellular fluid constant. This it must do despite a varying outside environment, and varying input. A part of this task–but only a part–is to remove from the body some of the waste by-products of metabolism which the cells cannot break down further. Thus the principal function of the kidney is not excretion, but regulation. We can move and live on dry land, even though we are three-quarters water, and survive; our cells tucked away in a carefully preserved ocean of extracellular fluid, whose composition is guarded with exquisite accuracy by the kidneys, a major part of our life-support system in this hostile environment. We can roam into deserts, and (usually) survive, or drink a six-pack of beer, or starve, or gorge, but essentially the extracellular soup remains of a constant composition, and because of this, the composition of the cells themselves is constant.

The kidney is less in control of the intracellular water, since if the kidneys do their job adequately, each cells is largely autonomous, and will extract and eject what it needs or does not need from the extracellular fluid. The kidney conserves what we need, but even more, it permits us the freedom of excess. That is, it allows us to take in more than we need of many necessities—water and salt for example—and excretes exactly what is not required. This is essential, since neither our ancestors nor we, animal or human know the composition of the foods we eat, and the only way to ensure a sufficiency of everything is to eat an excess of at least some. Finally, the kidneys preserve the volume of our body fluids as well as their composition. Given that we’re almost ¾ water, quite simply weighing oneself each day can assess the precision with which the kidney achieves this.

Despite variations in diet, exercise or fluid intake, the figures remain constant. The kidney performs its tasks, with a precision of as good as 1% and never worse than 5%, under extremely varying circumstances. If the kidneys fail suddenly, death occurs after a few days, partly because some of the accumulated metabolic waste products are toxic to the heart, which stops. More interesting, is the way in which the kidney can adapt to slow destruction by dysfunction, so that one can survive on as little as 5% of overall kidney function. The kidney has greater reserve capacity in the face of disorder than (for example) the heart or the lungs.

Why can’t we switch off urine production all together in times of drought? This is impossible because of two constraints. The first is that there is an upper limit to the degree of concentration of urine that we can achieve. This is a function of the length of the loops in the kidney tubules. The other constraint, given that there is a limit to our concentrating capacity, is that there is a minimum amount of soluble waste, which we must excrete through our kidneys each day. This is mostly nitrogen-containing compounds, principally urea; and on a normal diet we produce an amount which will not dissolve in less than about one pint of the most concentrated urine we can produce. Therefore, even on a raft in the ocean, or in the dessert, we go on passing this volume of urine. If you are dehydrated, your urine is already four times as concentrated as your blood.

Question: (TALO) When drinking lots of water causes sodiuim levels to drop, then wouldn't it be safe to say that for every 2 litres + - (just picked a number) we should drink something to replenish our electolyes like gatorade or something ? Then wouldn't that make drinking a lot of water safer ?

As a matter of fact that is just the kind of thing that is recommended. But in order for this to be necessary you really have to be consuming way too much water. In other words, it doesn't make any sense to me to replenish electrolytes in order to compensate for over-hydration. That is just assuming there is some need for all that EXTRA water, and again, past the point of saying if your active you need more.

This is assuming you are not sweating your ass off in the hot sun for long periods of time. But even then the body regualtes electrolyte levels up to a point very well. It is another myth that all of your sweat contains sodium and such. It doesn't.

I posted something else on that before but I don't remember exactly. It is interesting to note that these military deaths involved simple over-hydration and loss of sodium because of that. Perhaps gatorade would have helped but the fact of the matter is they were pushed to consume more water than was necessary.

YES, water is good for you, tough, lol.

[EricT]

I doubt that the average person who drinks extra water thinking it's going to halt the aging process or make muscles grow is going to hurt themselves, really. But there is a point I could make about drinking tons of water instead of other water containing beverages and that is there are some good things nutrient wise you are missing out on. As far as the body is concerned water is water.

I agree in general that your thirst will guide you. But I would like to caution that there are certain situations where drinking extra water as a precaution...although not extreme ridiculous amounts of it...may be a good idea. When your are sweating out a lot or working or playing in extreme heat it is good to sip on something whether you are particularly thirsty or not. I have seen and have been in situations where the effects of dehydration snuck up on people (including myself) before they were really aware of it.

Edit* I thought I should back that up with at least a little explanation other than personal observation. You'll hear lots of arguments as to when the thirst response kicks in and whether you are already "dehydrated" to some degree but since there is not really a good gauge of what is "normal" then it all becomes a lot of pointless speculation. In general you drink when you're thirsty and your fine. And since most everybody given a choice drinks much more than that plus takes in liquid through food...you get the point.

But the problem when your out in the hot sun our something is that if you are dumping enough fluid and becoming dehydrated quickly enough you may feel a little thirsty at first but the degree of thirst doesn't increase proportionately with the degree of dehydration. I.E. when you are twice as dehydrated you won't necessarily feel twice as thirsty. In certain situations, with strenous effort in extreme heat it is just easy to become dehydrated quickly enough while ignoring the thirst and as you become more dehydrated you're not exactly thinking as straight anymore, so on and so forth.

Anybody who's been engaged in serious work or play in dry or hot conditions (even cold dry conditions) knows it's pretty easy to override the thirst response when you're busy. And as you become more dehydrated your judgement decreases and you can get a little "demented" meaning that thirst isn't so reliable anymore. So it always pays to be careful about hydration. But most of the "hydrate" mania we get today is hype.

And please don't tell me this thread isn't about water. The article was about water. That is the subject at hand. You want to debate science or articles in takes more than righteous anger. If I was just some member of the public coming upon this, frankly, I would believe the article because it at least it tries to present some info rather biased or not.